By Rob on Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 11:00 pm:

Hi Tom,

Is it worth it? A definite yes.

We'd be happy with just one x64 driver (v4.60 addon). Support could be conditional/limited. Even if it wasn't offically supported, we'd be very greatful and atleast then have a driver we can use for a year or two at the minimum, rather than be limited to x86.

Please don't underestimate the number of WFF wheels still in operation. As a active member in the LiveForSpeed community (www.liveforspeed.net), I can count numerous others I've raced against that use the WFF. They all say howmuch the quality surpasses any other wheel produced by Logitech and wished they make another model. Yes they were very expensive compared to other of the time, but well worth the investment. For these reasons I think this wheel deserves at least one x64 patch addon. Please don't kill off Logitech's "golden child of wheels".

I really hope you can reconsider.

Rob

By tom on Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 03:45 pm:

x64 is not supported, indeed. Is it as easy as a recompile? I don't think so, out of all the drivers we have this is the one that's probably most prone to bitness assumptions. Is it worth it? I'm sure it would be for some folks, but "getting another 2-3 years of life out of it" means also "carrying forward the legacy for another 2-3 years"... I know that sort of thing is frustrating when you're just trying to carry on your loved peripherals that still work well. What can I say?

By Rob on Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 05:34 pm:

Tom,

DOH! I just checked 4.50 and had no luck with it. So I checked back here and noticed my mistake.

I mean't x64... Too in the habbit of typing x86. I thought it was strange you said 4.5 worked under x64.

Bugger. It's a real pitty you guys decided to drop support just before x64. It would have extended the life of these controllers for another 2-3 years.

Is it possible to recompile the 4.5 driver for x64?

Rob

By tom on Tuesday, November 1, 2005 - 09:15 am:

When you say "x86" you mean 32 bit Windows, I hope? 64 bit Windows is "x64" and indeed we have no driver code for 64 bit Windows for LWF/LWFF, it's never been ported.

By Rob on Tuesday, November 1, 2005 - 08:19 am:

Thanks Tom,

I'll give v4.50 a shot. Perhaps the main web site could be updated to reflect this info, as it's not clear that it does support x86.

Version 4.60 is clearly labled as such.

Rob

By tom on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 10:43 pm:

Hi Rob,

4.50 + addon definitely works (with Profiler and FF support, i.e. the full package) right now with all current OSs, and I'm pretty sure it would work on Vista, too. Unless MS changes their policy on "users installing evil drivers" and the such ;)

The synchronous nature is caused by the opposite. On WMF/WMFF, the device is very smart, and the firmware does a lot. As a result, the host has to hand off a lot of responsibilities to the device, which (unfortunately) also means living with the limitations of the firmware, both in terms of speed as well as in terms of number/complexity of effects. Yes, it would be possible to do a "virtual effect" scheme where the host pages in/out real effects from the device. However, due to the amount of traffic on USB caused by such a scheme, it would have even a greater impact on framerate. We have not pursued such an approach.

There is already some amount of information around for the protocol (never been officially disclosed but I guess staring at logs long enough will eventually lead to enlightenment), for example, http://user.it.uu.se/~johannd/projects/ff/doc.shtml

By Rob on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 10:23 pm:

Hi Rob,

Thanks for detailed reply.

If I read you right, v4.50 + addon will install under x86 and possibly Vista?

I understand the challenges you must face, trying to support legacy HW. 7 years a long time, but also a great testiment to the durability of these controllers. I dare say there will be many still going long after the next gen have worn out.

I think many of us would even settle for non forcefeed back support at the minimum to avoid the hassles, just to escape the combine axis headaches.

I assume by the synchronous nature of the WFF, that the force feedback logic is actually handled by the CPU, rather than an onboard processor. Perhaps there would there be an oppertunity to get some specifications (for the serial and possibly USB interfaces) so that the OSS community might continue support for it.

I look forward to your reply.

Regards
Rob

By tom on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 01:48 pm:

Hi Rob,

the decision is pretty much final, yes. LWF and LWFF have been "retired" as of 4.50. 4.40 was the last release that had them built in, in 4.50 we left them out but still had an add-on install that added the functionality back. 4.60 did not have that add-on install anymore - there is nothing in 4.60 that would have applied to those devices anyway. You can still run 4.50 (http://www.wingmanteam.com/files/releases/4.50/) that has, when the add-on is installed, full support for your wheel.

I can see your frustration in this. For us, it is a matter of maintenance - we don't have infinite resources, and holding on to everything that we have ever made on every platform is just not practical, as far as the resulting test matrix goes. We have abandoned (sort of) the gameport devices with Windows 2000 upwards. We have abandoned Windows 95 somewhere in the 4.x days. It's only a matter of time until we don't support Windows 9x at all anymore.

One of the biggest problems we face with this controller is the way it does force-feedback - it is quite limited to only a few effects, and it requires "synchronous" operation, where game updates to forces cause the game to block until the updates are done. Going away from this model is constrained by the firmware and, if attempted, would be a quite non-trivial task. Many of the newer games use more forces (which will only work partially on that wheel), and due to the synchronous nature, framerates start to suffer.

Combine that with a dwindling number of people who are actually still using this wheel, and the decision becomes quite clear - we need to clean out support for older devices every so often. This wheel has now been around for 7 years - how many pieces of consumer hardware can you find still find drivers for that are 7 years old? How about a Voodoo2 SLI card? Or more closely related, how about a Microsoft wheel?

I hope this explains the thinking behind the decisions that were made. As it is, we have enough to do, and we'd prefer to do fewer things *right* rather than a huge amount of things half-heartedly.

So, for you, hold on to the 4.50 release. It's quite solid and is probably as far as this wheel will ever go (it should even install on Longhorn/Windows Vista, at least 4.60 does on the beta).

cheers,
..tom

By Rob on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 03:40 am:

Hi Tom / Robert,

Is the decision to not support (in v4.60) for the Wingman Formula Force under x86 final.

Is there any possibility of support being added back?

Many of us driving sim fans are still using our trusty bullet proof WFF. Logitech lastest offerings simply don't match the quality of the older WFF. I've been through two WFFGP's in the time my WFF has worked faultless.

I'm sure many others would agree that being forced to buy another contoller simply due to lack of driver support is frustrating.

I plead to you no to kill off what has been such a great controller and a great example of why logitech controllers are so much better.

I understand the device isn't fully HID compliant, but surely there is a work around. The serial support isn't needed, just USB. Perhaps you could offer some insight to why the decision was made.

I look forward to your reply.

Regard
Rob Ardill